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	<title>Comments on: Mass Flux and Erosive Burning</title>
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	<link>http://www.tdkpropulsion.com/2008/07/mass-flux-and-erosive-burning/</link>
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		<title>By: TDK Propulsion &#187; Blog Archive &#187; More Erosive Formulas</title>
		<link>http://www.tdkpropulsion.com/2008/07/mass-flux-and-erosive-burning/comment-page-1/#comment-199</link>
		<dc:creator>TDK Propulsion &#187; Blog Archive &#187; More Erosive Formulas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 09:52:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] more research, discussion, and testing, the linear erosive model (see this post for more info) doesn&#8217;t seem to hold 100% true. This post is more of me thinking out loud [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] more research, discussion, and testing, the linear erosive model (see this post for more info) doesn&#8217;t seem to hold 100% true. This post is more of me thinking out loud [...]</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.tdkpropulsion.com/2008/07/mass-flux-and-erosive-burning/comment-page-1/#comment-188</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 08:37:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdkpropulsion.com/?p=31#comment-188</guid>
		<description>At what point does the gas velocity begin to increase appreciably as you leave the burning surface front?  Is it still within the transition region, or beyond that?

I did forget to mention Radzan and Kuo, Renie and Osborn, King, or any of the other myriad of erosive burning papers that have been published in the AIAA journal.  Many of the more modern studies rely extensively on numerical simulation techniques (PEM combustion) and assume that the AP/binder gas is premixed before erosivity becomes a problem -- so I think the density model still applies.

Granted, I&#039;m not sure of the accuracy of the $$1+kV$$ model -- though the Zucrow and Hoffman text is held in high regard, I&#039;m not aware of anybody firing motors to try and corroborate the equation.  Looks like a good static testing exercise :)

One other thing I did think about last night as I was falling asleep is the fact (duh) that in a core-burning or BATES model, the mass flux is always highest across the face of the grain closest to the nozzle.  I&#039;ve been struggling with modeling mass flux in two dimensions ($$\dot m$$ as a function of grain length, and $$\dot m$$ as a function of burn depth), but this would simplify things -- at least for characterization motors.  Don&#039;t know why I didn&#039;t bring that up before.

Maybe a fun experiment would be to try and predict the time at which the aft-most grain gets completely consumed and spit during erosive motor operation.  Seems simple enough -- make a motor with short aft grains, figure out the rate difference between head end and nozzle end flow, and go from there.  Hmm.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At what point does the gas velocity begin to increase appreciably as you leave the burning surface front?  Is it still within the transition region, or beyond that?</p>
<p>I did forget to mention Radzan and Kuo, Renie and Osborn, King, or any of the other myriad of erosive burning papers that have been published in the AIAA journal.  Many of the more modern studies rely extensively on numerical simulation techniques (PEM combustion) and assume that the AP/binder gas is premixed before erosivity becomes a problem &#8212; so I think the density model still applies.</p>
<p>Granted, I&#8217;m not sure of the accuracy of the
<p class="ql-center-displayed-equation" style="line-height: 14px;"><span class="ql-right-eqno"> &nbsp; </span><span class="ql-left-eqno"> &nbsp; </span><img src="http://www.tdkpropulsion.com/wp-content/ql-cache/quicklatex.com-5712af9eb397836dced9372f29d327b6_l3.png"class="ql-img-displayed-equation" alt="&#92;&#91;&#49;&#43;&#107;&#86;&#92;&#93;" title="Rendered by QuickLaTeX.com"/></p>
<p> model &#8212; though the Zucrow and Hoffman text is held in high regard, I&#8217;m not aware of anybody firing motors to try and corroborate the equation.  Looks like a good static testing exercise <img src='http://www.tdkpropulsion.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>One other thing I did think about last night as I was falling asleep is the fact (duh) that in a core-burning or BATES model, the mass flux is always highest across the face of the grain closest to the nozzle.  I&#8217;ve been struggling with modeling mass flux in two dimensions (
<p class="ql-center-displayed-equation" style="line-height: 12px;"><span class="ql-right-eqno"> &nbsp; </span><span class="ql-left-eqno"> &nbsp; </span><img src="http://www.tdkpropulsion.com/wp-content/ql-cache/quicklatex.com-670a7d70a0db0334aa060c3626c8fcc3_l3.png"class="ql-img-displayed-equation" alt="&#92;&#91;&#92;&#100;&#111;&#116;&#32;&#109;&#92;&#93;" title="Rendered by QuickLaTeX.com"/></p>
<p> as a function of grain length, and
<p class="ql-center-displayed-equation" style="line-height: 12px;"><span class="ql-right-eqno"> &nbsp; </span><span class="ql-left-eqno"> &nbsp; </span><img src="http://www.tdkpropulsion.com/wp-content/ql-cache/quicklatex.com-670a7d70a0db0334aa060c3626c8fcc3_l3.png"class="ql-img-displayed-equation" alt="&#92;&#91;&#92;&#100;&#111;&#116;&#32;&#109;&#92;&#93;" title="Rendered by QuickLaTeX.com"/></p>
<p> as a function of burn depth), but this would simplify things &#8212; at least for characterization motors.  Don&#8217;t know why I didn&#8217;t bring that up before.</p>
<p>Maybe a fun experiment would be to try and predict the time at which the aft-most grain gets completely consumed and spit during erosive motor operation.  Seems simple enough &#8212; make a motor with short aft grains, figure out the rate difference between head end and nozzle end flow, and go from there.  Hmm.</p>
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		<title>By: John DeMar</title>
		<link>http://www.tdkpropulsion.com/2008/07/mass-flux-and-erosive-burning/comment-page-1/#comment-187</link>
		<dc:creator>John DeMar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 04:15:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tdkpropulsion.com/?p=31#comment-187</guid>
		<description>The density is not constant at the surface where the combustion transition (solid, melt, gas, combustion) is taking place.  This is why the classic choked flow m-dot is not the same as mass flux.

  There are many models, from simple to wildly complex, to describe erosive burning and related phenomenon such as acceleration affects and resonant burning.  The &quot;1+kv&quot; linear approximation isn&#039;t all that good.  There are two that I use in my simulations:  Lenoir-Robillard(1957)/King(1975) and Kriedler(1964).   L-R/K says it is nonlinear and is affected by flow(+), burn rate(-), solid density(-), and length(-).  Such as:  1 + Ka V^0.8 exp(-Kb rb rho / V) / L^0.2
  Kriedler says there&#039;s a threshold mass flux that depends on pressure, and there&#039;s less erosive affect at higher pressures and higher br exponents.  Such as:  1 + (K1 + K2 p)(V-Vth)/p^n.

  A good reference is:  Razdan and Kuo, 1983, &quot;Erosive Burning of Solid Porpellants&quot;, AIAA.

  Here are a couple examples of the non-linear simulation.  This one is the L-R/K model which matches the very erosive burn simulation:  http://thrustgear.com/MotorSim/bg6gr_38.GIF
This sim is the gradual affect of the Kreidler model which is more useful for mildly erosive propellants:  http://thrustgear.com/MotorSim/motorsim_example1.JPG

  The only way to find the threshold and constants is to burn several motors with increasing mass flux while trying to hold everything else the same.

   -John DeMar</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The density is not constant at the surface where the combustion transition (solid, melt, gas, combustion) is taking place.  This is why the classic choked flow m-dot is not the same as mass flux.</p>
<p>  There are many models, from simple to wildly complex, to describe erosive burning and related phenomenon such as acceleration affects and resonant burning.  The &#8220;1+kv&#8221; linear approximation isn&#8217;t all that good.  There are two that I use in my simulations:  Lenoir-Robillard(1957)/King(1975) and Kriedler(1964).   L-R/K says it is nonlinear and is affected by flow(+), burn rate(-), solid density(-), and length(-).  Such as:  1 + Ka V^0.8 exp(-Kb rb rho / V) / L^0.2<br />
  Kriedler says there&#8217;s a threshold mass flux that depends on pressure, and there&#8217;s less erosive affect at higher pressures and higher br exponents.  Such as:  1 + (K1 + K2 p)(V-Vth)/p^n.</p>
<p>  A good reference is:  Razdan and Kuo, 1983, &#8220;Erosive Burning of Solid Porpellants&#8221;, AIAA.</p>
<p>  Here are a couple examples of the non-linear simulation.  This one is the L-R/K model which matches the very erosive burn simulation:  <a href="http://thrustgear.com/MotorSim/bg6gr_38.GIF" rel="nofollow">http://thrustgear.com/MotorSim/bg6gr_38.GIF</a><br />
This sim is the gradual affect of the Kreidler model which is more useful for mildly erosive propellants:  <a href="http://thrustgear.com/MotorSim/motorsim_example1.JPG" rel="nofollow">http://thrustgear.com/MotorSim/motorsim_example1.JPG</a></p>
<p>  The only way to find the threshold and constants is to burn several motors with increasing mass flux while trying to hold everything else the same.</p>
<p>   -John DeMar</p>
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